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How did Estonia, a small Baltic nation, become a global education powerhouse? Since gaining independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, the country has not only built a thriving startup economy but also a world-class education system that consistently tops the PISA test rankings in Europe. This episode explores the critical Estonia education system lessons that leaders from South Carolina are bringing home after a recent delegation trip. What can a US state learn from a country with a completely different history and culture?
Join host Catherine Schumacher as she sits down with three local leaders who were part of the trip organized by the Riley Institute at Furman University: Kelly Gregory from the Riley Institute, Cheryl Garrison of the Greenville Chamber, and Eric Williams from Greenville County Schools. They unpack the secrets behind the Estonia PISA test success, exploring how a focus on critical thinking and problem-solving over rote memorization creates high-achieving students. The discussion offers a detailed comparison of vocational education in Estonia versus South Carolina's CTE programs, revealing differences in student awareness, program flexibility, and the role of business partnerships. A key theme that emerged was the high degree of student autonomy in schools, where independence and trust are fostered from a young age, leading to graduates who are strong communicators and collaborators.
Throughout the conversation, the guests share their most significant takeaways. They delve into Estonia's commitment to the whole child approach, where hobby clubs like robotics and cooking are integrated into the school day, allowing students to learn academic skills in practical, engaging ways. The group also discusses the concept of "teacher looping" - where teachers stay with the same group of students from first to fourth grade - and how it builds deep, lasting relationships. From the emphasis on lifelong learning as a cultural norm to the surprising discovery that Estonian schools spend less time on core academics than US schools, this episode provides a wealth of Estonia education system lessons. While South Carolina excels in areas like industry partnerships, Estonia's model for fostering autonomy, creativity, and well-being offers a powerful new perspective on what's possible in American education.
Episode Resources:
Introduction
Catherine Schumacher: How did one of the smallest countries in Europe punch way above its weight class on the Program for International Student Assessment, or PISA test? And what can a small state like South Carolina learn from it? I'm Catherine Schumacher with Public Education Partners Greenville County, and today on Simple Civics Ed Talks, we will speak with three local leaders who this spring were part of a statewide delegation to Estonia, a Baltic country known as the Baltic Tiger.
Until 1991, Estonia was part of the Soviet Union. But since its singing revolution and independence in the early 90s, the country has built a strong education system and one of the most successful startup economies in Europe, including in industry clusters that are important to our own South Carolina economy. The trip was organized by the Riley Institute at Furman University, the South Carolina Council on Competitiveness, and Public Education Partners Greenville County. For our conversation, I'm joined by Kelly Gregory, Director of Public Education Projects and Partnerships at the Riley Institute, Cheryl Garrison, Executive Director of the Greenville Chamber Foundation and Vice President of Leadership and Talent Development for the Greenville Chamber of Commerce, and Eric Williams, Assistant Superintendent for Secondary Schools and Career Centers for Greenville County Schools.
Catherine Schumacher: I'm very excited to be here with my friends. I feel like we should kick this off by saying, Tere, good morning, hello. The one bit of Estonian that I learned on our trip with Kelly and Eric and Cheryl. Thank you for being here to talk about the incredible trip that we took and what we learned and what we're excited to bring back here to Greenville and to South Carolina. Thanks for making time for it today.
Why South Carolina is Looking to Estonia for Educational Insights
Catherine Schumacher: Kelly, I'm going to start with you because the Riley Institute was really the catalyst for this trip. And you did a lot of research into figuring out the right place to go. I know a lot of folks, when you say we're taking a statewide delegation to Estonia, people were like, what is this? Can you talk a little bit about the conversations as we were planning with our friends from the South Carolina Council on Competitiveness? What is it about Estonia and South Carolina that we had in common and made it such an interesting pairing for us in our group.
Kelly Gregory: When we think about Estonia and South Carolina, on the surface, it doesn't necessarily seem like there would be a lot of similarities, but we felt like there were enough that we could take some lessons learned in Estonia and potentially apply them here in South Carolina and even just right here in Greenville County. First, from a size standpoint, Estonia's population size is quite small. It's 1.3 million people. And that is smaller than the population size of South Carolina. I think we're 5.3 million. A little bit bigger. But those smaller population sizes in general.
I think make it easier potentially to affect change in certain areas. Also, in Estonia, there is a fair amount of local control among the municipalities with each municipality and even individual schools having the ability and the freedom to make certain decisions that are best for them. And we see this with our school districts here in South Carolina as well. Down the road in Columbia, actually, the Columbia World Affairs Council over time has developed quite a strong partnership with Estonia. And we saw that that had led to some really interesting exchanges of ideas, both when it comes to academics and other things. And last, just in the fun fact category, several years ago, there was a young man from Estonia who was a student at the University of South Carolina, and he was a basketball player. He became quite popular, so much so that there was even a New York Times article written about him. And all of a sudden, people in Columbia, South Carolina knew what Estonia was and where it was, which is a neat connection.
Catherine Schumacher: A little fun fact. Obviously, we talk, the PISA scores, Estonia being the European country that does the best on this big international test that everyone takes. That was one of the main reasons is thinking about, what are they doing right that maybe we can do? And then what are the things that we do really well that maybe we could share with them?
Comparing Vocational Education and Industry Partnerships
Catherine Schumacher: And along those lines, Eric, we visited elementary and high schools as well as a vocational high school, kind of like our career and technical education centers. What was one thing that you saw that you think we could emulate here in Greenville? And what is one thing that we do better? Because I think we saw a couple of things that we think we'd do better.
Eric Williams: Big picture, just the value of education there for society, for families, communities, businesses, they place a strong emphasis on ensuring that students are participating and that they're in school and there's just a strong values around it. From a career technical education and vocational, I think students have a great sense of awareness of what programs and what opportunities are available to them. They know what the goalposts are. They clearly understand that there's this track and they have a defined point in time where they can choose that university track or that vocational track, but they know what those opportunities are. From an awareness standpoint, I think that's an area where we struggle sometimes. We do a lot of different things, media and marketing to make students aware of what opportunities are available for them. But there seemed to be this underlying awareness of it. at this point I'm going to choose one of these options and I'm going to be all in on those options.
Catherine Schumacher: And in some ways, that's something that I think we do really well here in the United States is there is more than one option. You can move. There's a flexibility here that we allow that I think you don't see in a lot of those European countries, which is a real strength for us and something that felt very different when we were looking at it. Would you say that that is something that allowing that moving back and forth? Is that something that we really encourage here in our system that we didn't see there?
Eric Williams: As our workforce continues to evolve, I think that's going to be a necessary component is that backing forth. And really what we're hearing from business and industry is the students who can maneuver between the blue collar, white collar and anything in between sides of employment are the students who are being the most successful. One other thing I think that we maybe have a little bit of a leg up is in terms of business and industry partnerships. And with our partnership in LaunchGVL and the Chamber of Commerce, I think we have strong buy-in from our industries. We didn't see that, didn't hear about that quite as much. That might be just because they're relatively young in terms of economic development and workforce development, and we have some more established partnerships. But I think we do a great job specifically in Greenville with that piece.
Lifelong Learning and Student Autonomy in the Estonian Model
Catherine Schumacher: And I think, Cheryl, that specifically ties into the work that you do at the chamber because your position focuses on leadership and talent development. What do you think about talent development, so to speak, in Estonia, what you saw, what we saw, and then how their model stacks up to ours in terms of creating pathways for people to move from a certificate program to a two year or four year up skill and all of that. What were your feelings coming out of our visit?
Cheryl Garrison: The thing that struck me broadly was that lifelong learning is an established norm in Estonia, and it's expected. And I think the other thing that is interesting is that their educational system is free for everyone who is studying in the Estonian language. Coupled with employer support, that free education at all levels allows individuals to gain additional skills and knowledge that lead to better employment opportunities over the course of a career. I really appreciated their emphasis on education, not just through a certain level, but through a lifetime.
As we've talked about, it is structured a little differently in that those pathways are a bit more set once a student goes towards a vocational pathway versus a university pathway. It does seem a little bit harder for them to adjust to something different, whereas we do have a bit more fluidity here, which I think is important. However, I think that may be meeting their needs in a way that they need it to. They said 25% of their students are going on that vocational pathway, getting those skills, going into those areas that are needed straight into the workforce. I thought it was also interesting that their education attainment rate is actually a little lower than ours here in Greenville, given the fact that the students do have free education all the way through a doctorate degree. You would think that they would have a much higher education attainment rate. Theirs is about 44 percent and ours in Greenville is about 51 percent.
Differences that struck me also were that there is no such thing as an associate degree in Estonia. It is either vocational education or it is a bachelor's degree and higher. There's a piece that we have here that I think, again, meets our needs for workforce that they've just structured differently. I also thought it was interesting how they utilize their resources for vocational education that they blend it. The students who may be in high school may be learning alongside students who are incumbent workers using those same facilities, using that same equipment to reskill and upskill. I feel like we do a little bit of that at the technical college, but they're kind of blending those in a way that we don't here.
One of the things that struck me that leads to them having a strong workforce is the fact that they foster autonomy in their students from the very beginning. And I think that that leads to a student who graduates, who is able to be a good decision maker, who can communicate, who is able to collaborate because they've been doing it throughout their entire educational process. And I think that that is something that we can take away and do more of here.
Catherine Schumacher: I think that was the thing that struck me. And we've talked a lot about it in our post-trip debriefs. Independence and the sense that the vibe, the vibe in the schools, for lack of a better word, there was a level of freedom that I thought physical, kids were kind of moving around in different ways, which I thought was interesting. And obviously, in this country, we worry about security a lot and safety and all of that, which is an American approach to things and controlling and that. But I also think that project-based technology. The team building and critical thinking. And I think, Kelly, I remember that when you ask people, how does Estonia do so well on these tests? And they really talked about the fact that the way that their education system is set up is to encourage those critical thinking skills. And how do you apply what you've learned in practice?
One of the things that I noted, and we've had conversations about career and technical education here in Greenville in particular, and the industry partnerships piece and how we see industry partners in our high schools. And I don't feel like that was anything that we saw in those vocational high schools. At the university level, we did. Would you all agree that that was something that was different that I feel like we do well here, particularly in Greenville, Eric?
Eric Williams: I would definitely agree. In fact, we asked about it a couple of times, especially in the vocational school. We just weren't seeing it. You didn't see signage. You didn't feel the presence of business and industry. And we've given a few examples, so I'm sure it's happening. But again, I think maybe we're just a little further along in that process.
Catherine Schumacher: And Kelly, I think from a size perspective, if you think about it, Estonia is kind of the size of the upstate. For that part of it, it's a good comparison point. We have such a list of things that we learned and that really struck us and that we've kind of put in a what have we taken away from this experience of this unique opportunity to go to a different culture that is so different. And the language is completely different.
Key Takeaway 1: Estonia’s Commitment to the Whole Child
Catherine Schumacher: And Kelly, what is the thing that really struck you the most? What is it that when you came home and you continue to think about now, a couple of weeks after we've been back?
Kelly Gregory: It's really hard for me to choose one. But I think for me, as someone who's both a former teacher and also a parent of young children myself, one of the things that stood out the most to me was their commitment to what I would call the whole child approach. By that, I mean that everywhere you looked, there were multiple opportunities for students to develop themselves in ways that were both creative and academic. But at the same time, there was still also a strong focus on children's physical and even social and emotional well-being. All of those things seem to be given equal importance.
And as we know, Estonian students perform quite well academically. We talked about the PISA scores earlier, but it's interesting that the schools don't focus on academics at the expense of other things. If you look at their schedules for the day, when we visited multiple schools, they actually really spend less time on core academic subjects than we do in general. Because of that, there's more time in the day to focus on some other things. Students are able to pursue different interests through what they call hobby clubs. If you're interested in learning about financial management, you can join the finance club or cooking or robotics.
This happens during the school day. It's not just limited to specific students who are able to stay after school. I think the important point here, too, is that when kids are in the finance club or the cooking club, they're still learning. You think about how much math is involved in either of those examples that I just gave. How your brain is having to figure out how to solve problems in a different way. We talked about the fact that those students perform really well on the PISA. And it was interesting in talking to some teachers and professors that said, you could say that maybe we teach to that test a little, but really what they're saying is that their students are educated in a way that develops them into problem solvers.
That particular assessment is really based on how well students are able to apply core academic knowledge into real world scenarios. When you go into cooking club and maybe you're presented with something that's unfamiliar to you, but it's something you're interested in. And that's a really ripe environment for developing deeper content knowledge in a way that is very meaningful for children and that feels very personal.
Catherine Schumacher: No, I think that's a great point.
Key Takeaway 2: Teacher Looping and Education as a National Imperative
Catherine Schumacher: Cheryl, what about you? What's the thing that keeps coming back to your brain?
Cheryl Garrison: There's a number of things. One thing that comes back is the imperative that Estonia feels for education. Again, their people are their greatest resource, and that is their security, is education. And creating a system where the rest of the world will protect them if need be. And the ability to become an entrepreneur and to grow a business there, I think, is really something that we felt.
But the thing that sticks with me most is something that we heard as we were leaving, and it was one of our folks with us was talking to the security as we were leaving, and he said, did you figure out why education is so important? What we do so well. And what he said was, we let children be children as long as possible, and the rest will take care of itself. And I thought that that just speaks volumes in how they both nurture and grow the children. And one of the ways that I thought was really interesting that I do think is something we could do here, and that was the teacher's loop with students. So in first through fourth grade, and again, as a former teacher and thinking about how much continuity that would establish for both children, for the teachers, as well as for parents, I think that that is something that we could potentially bring back here. When you think about looping for four years, that's a lot of not lost learning that can happen over a period of time.
Catherine Schumacher: And I know we do some looping here and there, but it's not really systemic. And it did seem the relationship building. I know we spend a lot of time in Greenville County Schools talking about relationships first. It's a core principle of teaching. But I think that opportunity to really know a child during those formative early elementary years is a really interesting concept.
Key Takeaway 3: The Power of Unstructured Learning and Healthy Competition
Catherine Schumacher: Eric, what about you?
Eric Williams: Building on some of the autonomy comments from earlier, I think that that sense of unstructured learning time and really even fun. We saw two really cool examples of competition. We visited a game show, which happened to be one of the most popular television shows in the country where students really were giving a project to do and they were competing against each other in the STEM field.
Catherine Schumacher: It's like American Idol, but for STEM.
Eric Williams: Absolutely.
Catherine Schumacher: It was wild.
Eric Williams: My brain was going all sorts of places. I loved it. And at the university, we saw these students who were presenting their projects and they were giving awards at the end. And the award that got the most applause was the peer award. There was this drive between the groups to be selected among their peers as the best project. Just seeing that they had some fun along with their learning and that time to self-direct and time to participate in things that were still learning and were still educational, but maybe weren't in the traditional school sense that we would see.
Final Reflections: Cultural Pride and the Mutual Exchange of Ideas
Catherine Schumacher: And I think obviously, and we haven't explicitly talked about it, Cheryl, you alluded to it. For listeners who do not know, Estonia was part of the Soviet Union until 1991. And they are right next door to Russia. And it was a constant theme that we heard about the anxiety and honestly expectation that something will eventually happen from that direction. And this idea of deep pride, cultural pride, pride in the language, pride in the education system, they could all talk about it. We talked about it singing from the same song sheet, which in Estonia is a big deal because it is a culture of singing. If you ever go to Estonia, and we hope that you will, they talk about singing as much as they talk about how proud they are of their education system. But I think this idea that they have to make their system really effective so that the world is paying attention, that was certainly the thing for me that I was not really expecting.
And I think for all of us, there is so much good happening. And part of the purpose of these podcasts is to lift up the good things that we are doing. This idea of the way that we integrate industry into our educational opportunities early. This was not a thing of where we were just going there to see what they're doing right and we're doing wrong. It really is this exchange of ideas. And I think it's such a rich opportunity to learn. And so grateful that the Riley Institute and the South Carolina Council on Competitiveness and Public Education Partners Greenville County were able to be a part of putting that together. It is such a blessing to have the opportunity and the privilege to go to other places and see what we have in common, what our differences are, what we can learn from each other and what we can share.
Aita, as they say, that's thank you in Estonian. That's my second Estonian word that I know. But thank you all for being here. Grateful. It's always great to see you. And thanks for everything that you're doing for the students of Greenville County. Simple Civics Ed Talks is a joint project of Greater Good Greenville, Greenville First Steps, and Public Education Partners Greenville County. Hi, Simple Civics Greenville County listeners.
Credits
Simple Civics: Greenville County is Produced by Podcast Studio X.
A Greater Good Greenville project.
